To investigate the criminal conduct of all institutions, organizations, and individuals involved in the persecution of Falun Gong; to bring such investigations, no matter how long it takes, no matter how far and deep we have to search, to full closure; to exercise fundamental principles of humanity; and to restore and uphold justice in society.

Lu Shuheng Reported the CCP’s Crime of Live Organ Harvesting from Falun Gong Practitioners to WOIPFG

January 3, 2021


In September 2016, the Sound of Hope Radio Station invited Mr. Wang Zhiyuan, president of the World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (WOIPFG), to a talk show about the proposed U.S. House Resolution 343 which  demanded an end to the live organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners. Mr. Lu Shuheng, a former Shanghai native residing in California, called the studio while the program was on air. He indicated that he would like to expose the crime of live organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).

On October 2, Mr. Lu came to the Sound of Hope Radio and sat in the studio to have a telephone call with Mr. Wang Zhiyuan to expose the details of the crime of his relatives’ participation in the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners and the live organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners.

The host that day was Gao Jie, an anchor from the Sound of Hope.

What Mr. Lu revealed was shocking and powerful in exposing the CCP’s persecution against Falun Dafa practitioners, especially its crime of live organ harvesting. We applaud Mr. Lu Shuheng’s courage. His braveness and integrity inspired many; Falun Gong practitioners in mainland China are still at risk of torture and being murdered for organs. This persecution must be stopped.

We have not released this important file to the public until today, four years later, for the sake of protecting this whistleblower.

Lu Shuheng also disclosed the tragic cases of organ harvesting from living Falun Gong practitioners without anesthesia at Shanghai Armed Police Hospital. He was repeatedly threatened not to say anything: how Shanghai policeman act as thugs bullying the Chinese dissidents; how police kidnapped Falun Gong practitioners and sent them to Pudong (a secret detention center) without taking records for a reward of five hundred yuan; and those from the Beijing central government requesting prisoner replacements for experiments and other shady crimes.

I. Whistleblower, Individuals Participated in Live Organ Harvesting and Their Profiles (Information provided by Mr. Lu in 2016)

Lu Shuhen: Whistleblower, born in the 1950s, a Shanghai native. He had been living in the U.S. for more than two decades and has a U.S. green card (permanent residency). Mr. Lu runs a renovation business.

Zhou Yu: Lu Shuheng’s sister-in-law (his elder brother’s wife), 62 years old.

Zhou Qin: Elder sister of Zhou Yu, 64 years old. Zhou Qing was the director of the Gynecology and Obstetrics Department at Shanghai Putuo Hospital. She later became the president of Shanghai Wanping Hospital. She has personally performed live organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners.

Mao Shupin: Zhou Qing’s husband, a native of Pingdu, Shandong Province. Mao was the former deputy director of the Shanghai Labor Reform Bureau and deputy director of the Judicial Bureau. Mao has a close relationship with Wu Zhiming, former secretary of the Shanghai Political and Legal Affairs Commission, and he has a good relationship with the Jiang Zemin clique.

Zhou Qing’s son-in-law: He is working at the Shanghai National Security Bureau and has been participating in the persecution of Falun Gong.

Zhou Qing’s daughter: Secretary general of the Shanghai Bar Association.

Cui Zhaoshen: Lu Shuheng’s nephew (his elder sister’s son). He worked as an auxiliary police officer at the police station in Xuhui District, Shanghai (near the U.S. Consulate).

II. Summary of Mr. Lu’s Report

1. “Money can be earned very quickly and in large amounts (through doing organ transplants). The organs are of very good quality and are all fresh.”

Lu Shuheng returned to Shanghai to visit his relatives in 2002, and when his family gathered for dinner, Zhou Qing’s husband Mao Shuping asked him to inquire if there were people in the United States who needed organ transplants, because organs were in short supply in the United States. Lu said that since he was doing renovations, he wouldn’t be able to get in touch with such people in his normal course of business. Mao said, “You keep an eye on this. If you can get in touch with a person (to do organ transplantation), you can earn much more money than doing renovations!” Lu asked what the business was about. Mao said that it was about organs, kidneys, livers, corneas and so on.

When they were having a family banquet the second time, Mao Shuping told Lu that Zhou Qing went to a military hospital to do organ transplants. “Money can be earned very quickly and in large amounts (through doing organ transplants). So you just go outside to get (business)!” “The organs are of very good quality and are all fresh, all alive!” His wife went to the armed police hospital to do organ transplants. Money was paid to his wife each time an organ transplant was performed.

2. “When they were tied up, they would shout ‘Falun Dafa is great’, but later they would shout in pain and utter heartrending cries...”

“When they were tied up, they would shout ‘Falun Dafa is great’, but later they would shout in pain and utter heartrending cries... There were armed policemen beside them, as well as military doctors, three or four or five people.”

“I asked her at the time ‘how could you be so daring?’ She said that she was originally daring. She then said that it was extremely terrifying...It was live organ harvesting! Now, I realized that since it was live organ harvesting, of course she was terrified. She had been using her scalpel to do surgeries all the time (before starting to do live organ harvesting), how come she would feel terrified?”

Lu asked Zhou Qing whether she was able to do organ transplants or not. She said that she was in the past, but she stopped doing them, as doing so would give her nightmares. Having nightmares made her not dare to do live organ harvesting. The money was not that easy to earn.

Zhou Yu also said that Zhou Qing did live organ harvesting a few times, but she then could not do it anymore, because she was terrified. When she cut the Falun Gong practitioners’ bodies open, they would scream desperately, as the pain was extremely unbearable!

3. Anesthesia cannot be used for the needed parts!

Lu asked why anesthesia was not used during live organ harvesting. According to Zhou Yu, Zhou Qing said that for some parts, anesthesia could be applied, but for other parts, anesthesia couldn’t be used. She said that anesthesia couldn’t be used for every part of the body. The parts needed for organ transplants couldn’t be anesthetized, because the less anesthetics used, the fresher and better the organs would be.

4. If you don’t cooperate, drugs will be put in your luggage, and they will have America send you back to China.

In 2010, Zhou Qing’s son-in-law threatened Lu Shuheng that if he exposed his mother-in-law Zhou Qing’s crime of live organ harvesting, they could get the U.S. government to send Lu Shuheng back to China. Lu said that it was impossible. Zhou’s son-in-law said, “You are so stupid! Don’t you have luggage to be checked in to send to the U.S.? We can put something in it. Once the Americans find the drugs, they will send you back here.”

Zhou Qing’s daughter has also told Lu, “About getting Falun Gong practitioners for something (i.e. organ harvesting), the situation is getting tense. So, do not speak of it to others. In case (the U.S. government) knows about it, in the future, it will even not be possible (for us) to go to the United States for a vacation!”

“In 2013, Zhou Yu told me to never talk about live organ harvesting outside for fear of causing trouble (for them).”

5. One policeman is awarded 500 yuan for arresting a Falun Gong practitioner. They wouldn’t record the arrest. Instead, they directly send the practitioner to Pudong.

Cui Zhaosheng, who was an “auxiliary” police officer in 2013, said that all the Falun Gong practitioners sent to their police station after being arrested were sent directly to Pudong. One day, a female Falun Gong practitioner was arrested. When she was sent to Cui’s police station, she was still saying “Falun Gong is great”. He said, “In the past, we would’ve beaten her up, but now we don’t. A vehicle transports her to (Pudong)... There’s no record (of her arrest). We don’t make any records, to avoid trouble. You are given 500 yuan in cash.”

Cui Zhaosheng said that he sent Falun Gong practitioners to Pudong at least several times a year.

6. When people came from Beijing to ask to replace the prisoners or asked for prisoners to do experiments, Mao Shuping would keep some evidence.

“Mao Shuping said that it was always the people from the central government, Beijing, who came here. They would ask to replace some prisoners. Those in the justice system could use other people to replace some prisoners. There were also people who wanted prisoners to do experiments. Judging from their tone, they wanted Falun Gong practitioners. Including my nephew, they would arrest Falun Gong practitioners to send to... Mao said, ‘Things like the notes (given by those that came to ask for Falun Gong practitioners) are kept by me. When they made phone calls, I would call them back, and I would keep the (telephone) recording. I would record all the things to avoid trouble in the future.’ (He) said that he was leaving a way out for himself. Mao said, ‘I made a copy of all the notes they originally gave me!’”

7. Mr. Lu passed a letter to someone for a neighbor. As a result, he was arrested midnight and sent into Yongjia Police Station to be beaten by electric batons.

Mr. Lu went back to Shanghai for the Chinese New Year at the end of 1999. Mrs. Yuan, who was a neighbor and house church Christian living on the 32nd Street, near where he lived in San Francisco, asked Mr. Lu to bring a letter to her friend in Shanghai. (Mrs. Yuan has since passed away.) She told Mr. Lu that she had put some money in the envelope. In the second night after he returned in Shanghai, a lady in her sixties came to take the letter. At the time, she stayed at Mr. Lu’s place for less than five minutes. However, at 12:50 a.m., several policemen from the local police station knocked on his door and took him to the Shanghai Yongjia Police Station (renamed Tianping Police Station later) and told him to give an honest account. Two policemen used electronic batons to shock him. The police said that he was channeling money to the underground church. Later, Mr. Lu heard that the old lady, who took the letter, was arrested. The police threatened Mr. Lu and told him to keep his mouth shut and should “report” to them any similar incidents in the future.

III. Some Explanations about Mr. Lu’s Testimony

1. The CCP’s live organ harvesting is completely different from the concept of “live harvesting” from brain-dead organ donors in the organ transplant community

1) When the tied Falun Gong practitioners entered the operating rooms, they would all shout “Falun Dafa is great!” This shows that first, they were Falun Gong practitioners, not death-row inmates; and second, they were all mentally sound and capable of acting and functioning normally, not brain-dead organ donors.

2) When Zhou Qing started to do live organ harvesting, the Falun Gong practitioners would scream desperately, as the pain was extremely unbearable! This means that no anesthesia was used at all. Since Zhou Qing was a veteran surgeon and had performed a lot of body-cutting surgeries, how come she became so terrified that she had nightmares just from doing organ transplants? It implies that after seeing the horrific scenes of live organ harvesting without anesthesia, even experienced surgeons were terrified, which shows how tragic and horrifying the scenes were.

3) Zhou Qing said that the body parts needed for organ transplants couldn’t be anesthetized, because the less anesthetics used, the fresher and better the organs would be. In the pursuit of better organ quality, live organ harvesting performed on Falun Gong practitioners without anesthesia is commonplace and real.

2. The organ transplant surgeries were performed at the Armed Police Hospital

In 2002, when Zhou Qing was doing live organ harvesting, she went to the General Hospital of the Chinese People’s Armed Police Forces in Shanghai to do the surgeries, instead of Shanghai Putuo Hospital, where she was working at that time. The armed police hospital has never appeared on the list of hospitals approved to perform human organ transplants by the CCP. And in 2004, the hospital was selected by the CCP as one of the first “National Model Hospitals for People’s Peace of Mind.” This proves once again that hospitals in the CCP’s military and police systems, whether they have the qualification to perform organ transplants or not, are generally involved in the crime of live organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners.

3. Some visitors from the central government asked to replace prisoners, and some even asked Mao for prisoners to do experiments.

What on earth are the people, who asked to replace prisoners? What were the criminal cases involved? What people asked for prisoners from Mao Shuping to do what experiments?

In order to leave himself with a way out, Mao Shuping has kept the evidence for the illegal things he handled, in hopes of becoming a tainted witness in the future.

4. They would put drugs in your luggage and have America send you back!

Zhou Qing’s son-in-law, who works at the Shanghai National Security Bureau revealed to Mr. Lu that if he didn’t cooperate with them and exposed the live organ harvesting, they would put drugs in his checked-in luggage, when he was about to go back to the U.S. Then when the drugs were discovered by the U.S. Customs, he would be denied entry and deported back to China.

5. In 2013, Shanghai would reward the police 500 yuan for arresting a Falun Gong Practitioner

In 2013, when a policeman arrested a Falun Gong practitioner, he was awarded 500 yuan in cash. No records were made for any Falun Gong practitioner sent to the police station in order to avoid trouble. And a vehicle directly transported the Falun Gong practitioner to Pudong.

Why did the police station deliberately not make records when they arrested people? To where did they send the practitioners in Pudong? What was the whereabouts of the Falun Gong practitioners sent there?

6. Mao Shuping is a key member of Jiang Zemin’s “Blood Debt Gang” that harvests organs from living Falun Gong practitioners

Mao Shuping belonged to Jiang Zemin’s “Shanghai clique.” He was the former head of the Shanghai Labor Reform Bureau and the Judicial Bureau, and was working right under Wu Zhiming, then secretary of the Shanghai Political and Legal Affairs Commission. Therefore, the closeness of their relationship is obvious. Mao was placed in the labor camp and prison system, where Falun Gong practitioners were imprisoned, based on the promotion rule of “having persecuted Falun Gong practitioners as a prerequisite for being promoted.” One can tell from this that he must have actively followed Jiang and acted as a pioneer in persecuting Falun Gong practitioners to gain trust from Jiang Zemin’s “Blood Debt Gang.”

In order to make illegal profits, Mao Shuping used his position to directly arrange for his wife, Zhou Qing, to go to the armed police hospital to perform live organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners. And he tried to instigate his relative, Mr. Lu, to obtain clients from the United States to come to Shanghai for organ transplants.

(Note) Wu Zhimin: He was appointed the director of Shanghai Municipal Public Security Bureau in April 2000. In October 2001, he was promoted to become a standing committee member of the Shanghai Municipal Committee and the director of the Public Security Bureau. From June 2002 to May 2012, he also served as the secretary of the Shanghai Municipal Political and Legal Affairs Commission. Wu is the nephew of Jiang Zemin, former secretary general of the Chinese Communist Party Central Committee and the son of Jiang Zekuan, Jiang Zemin’s brother.

IV. Studio On-site Recording

Date: October 2, 2016

Place of Report: Sound of Hope Radio Broadcasting Room

Informer: Mr. Lu

Moderator: Gao Jie

WOIPFG International Chairman: Wang Zhiyuan


Gao Jie: Can you hear me? I am Gao Jie.

Wang Zhiyuan: I can hear you.

Gao Jie: Mr. Lu is opposite me in the live broadcasting room, I can introduce you now. Mr. Lu, you have been here for 20 years?

Mr. Lu: Yes, yes.

Gao Jie: Are you from Shanghai?

Mr. Lu: Yes, from Shanghai.

Gao Jie: Uh, were you afraid of coming here?

Mr. Lu: It is unrealistic to say I’m not afraid. I am afraid that they might give me trouble when I go back. Because I know their private schemes.

Gao Jie: Mm.

Mr. Lu: And the person from the Chinese National Security I just mentioned.

Gao Jie: Mm.

Mr. Lu: He told me when they were having dinner together. He said that if I didn't cooperate, which means if I reveal this to the outside and cause trouble, for example, if it’s me, then he would ask the U.S. government to send me back. I said that’s impossible. He said, “You are so stupid.” He said, “Don't you have luggage to take to America?” He said that Americans check for drugs, and they said that drugs could be put in it (my luggage).

Gao Jie: Oh, to frame you!

Mr. Lu: Well, they are pretty bad. Plant evidence and frame (me). I have a classmate named Zhang Kanglin. He was arrested like that. He died shortly after he was released. They locked him in a very damp place.

Gao Jie: Mm.

Mr. Lu: They didn't let him be in the sun. He was also a political (prisoner), and they always sprayed water into his room.

Gao Jie: Bad, huh, really bad, how could they be this wicked?!

Mr. Lu: Really evil, it's unimaginable for the future!

Gao Jie: Can you hear me? Wang Zhiyuan?

Wang Zhiyuan: Can you hear me, how about my voice?

Gao Jie: I can hear you.

Mr. Lu: I can hear you.

Gao Jie: Okay, then I will talk about the background briefly. I am the host of Sound of Hope radio, and my name is Gao Jie. When we invited Mr. Zhiyuan Wang to do an interview at the end of September to talk about the U.S. 343 proposal to stop organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners during the interview, I received a direct phone call from Mr. Lu and he said he wanted to report (on it). He had heard about live organ harvesting many years ago. He knew that CCP members, including those in the medical system, had done many bad things. Right now it’s 9:14 in the morning of October 2, 2016. Mr. Lu is already sitting in the broadcasting room of Sound of Hope. Thank you, Mr. Lu. Tell me your name? Then you can introduce yourself to Wang Zhiyuan.

Mr. Lu: Hello, Mr. Wang, my name is Lu Shuheng, Lu is the same as Dalu (continent); Shu is the same character as in “tree;” Heng is the character for perseverance. I was born in 1950, a Shanghai resident. I want to report one thing, that I often listen to NTDTV and Sound of Hope radio, to hear talk about live organ harvesting, the mainland Communist Party harvesting Falun Gong organs and other human organs. I listened; I know some inside information I haven't revealed before. Why didn’t I tell it to anyone? Because I have a lot of concerns, I am afraid of those mainland Chinese giving me trouble when I go back. After all, I’m now on a green card, so I have not revealed it. I really can't hold back anymore after I heard Miss Gao Jie talk about it that day. I know about the Communist Party's live organ harvesting matter, so I must speak up. But I also hope that you do not reveal my name at the moment, and other information. Because I have a house in mainland China, they haven't given it (the deed) to me. Once it is given to me, and after I pass the naturalization test, I can do everything on TV. Because my house has not yet settled at all and I have not yet become a U.S. citizen. Once the house is settled and I get the money (for selling the house) and I become a (U.S.) citizen, I can do anything without any worries.

Gao Jie: Mm.

Mr. Lu: What I am reporting is this: it is the matter of the doctors in mainland China and the armed police system who took organs from people who are alive. It’s like this, my sister-in-law's name is Zhou Yu.

Wang Zhiyuan: Wait a minute, let me ask Mr. Lu first. I heard your introduction, that is, you are now going to report something to WOIPFG about the CCP’s organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners.

Mr. Lu: Yes.

Wang Zhiyuan: Right?

Mr. Lu: Yes.

Wang Zhiyuan: In what year did this happen?

Mr. Lu: I went back in 2002, uh, she told me.

Wang Zhiyuan: Okay, alright. It was your sister-in-law in 2002, right?

Mr. Lu: It’s my sister-in-law's sister.

Wang Zhiyuan: Oh, what is your sister-in-law's name? What is her sister's name?

Mr. Lu: My sister-in-law's name is Zhou Yu.

Gao Jie: The same Zhou as Zhou Enlai.

Mr. Lu: Yu is the character in “pure jade.” Her sister is called Zhou Qing.

Gao Jie: Qing for “clear.”

Mr. Lu: My sister-in-law is 62 years old this year. Her Chinese zodiac is horse. Her sister may be two years older than her, about 64 years old.

Gao Jie: Sixty-four years old.

Mr. Lu: She used to be the director of the Obstetrics and Gynecology Department in Shanghai Putuo Hospital.

Wang Zhiyuan: Yeah, okay.

Mr. Lu: Then, she later became Shanghai Wanping Hospital’s director.

Wang Zhiyuan: Mm.

Mr. Lu: Her man, what a background his family has, her man’s name is Mao Shuping, which is San Mao’s Mao.

Gao Jie: Mao Zedong's Mao.

Mr. Lu: Shu is for uncle in father and uncle.

Gao Jie: Shu, uncle in father and uncle? Mao Shuping is her husband.

Mr. Lu: Ping is for ordinary. Her husband is from Pingdu, Shandong. When he retired, he was the deputy secretary of the party committee of the Shanghai Municipal Bureau of Justice, or deputy bureau director. He has a very good relationship with Jiang Zemin and his faction. He used to be the deputy director of the Shanghai Labor Reform Bureau or deputy secretary of the party committee, for sure.

Wang Zhiyuan: Okay.

Mr. Lu: Now I will talk about Zhou Qing.

Wang Zhiyuan: Okay.

Mr. Lu: This happened with Zhou Qing. When I went back in 2002, right? When my brother and sister-in-law were inviting guests to dinner, we lived downstairs, they lived upstairs, and we were all downstairs when we were having dinner. When everyone was together, she came to me to talk about something, as I was living in the United States, and I could hear if some people needed transplants as they (organs) are very scarce in the United States. I said that I remodel houses for a living and was not in contact with people like that. She said that I should pay attention. If I can build a relationship with such a person, that it is far more profitable than my remodeling business. I asked what she was talking about. She said it was about organs, kidneys and such things. She talked about the corneas.

Gao Jie: The cornea of the eye.

Mr. Lu: And the livers, she said livers.

Gao Jie: (She) wanted you to introduce patients who wanted organ transplants to Shanghai?

Mr. Lu: Yes, yes. Later, I said you would do it? She said I would do it but I don’t do it now. I asked her why she don't do it anymore? She said she was having nightmares because of doing this thing. I asked her how come she had nightmares? She said she did several times. I didn’t pay much attention to the matter at the time, and I thought it was great to do such an operation. She said that she originally worked in the surgical obstetrics and gynecology department. Later, when we were sitting together, her husband told me in person that she went to a military hospital to do it. He also said that its quick money and the amount was quite large. So, he said you go outside to get it, he said that the quality is quite good, and it's all live, he said. I didn't know what that meant, “live.” A few days after that dinner, I asked my sister-in-law. She said that she had nightmares after having done organs (transplants), so she stopped doing it. At that time, she was already the director of Shanghai Wanping Hospital.

Gao Jie: Shanghai Wanping Hospital is a famous surgical transplant hospital yet, right?

Mr. Lu: Yes, she didn’t go to her hospital to do it, she went to the Armed Police Hospital to do it. Her husband personally told him to give her money and give his wife money.

Gao Jie: It means that the Armed Police Hospital went outside to find a transplant doctor to perform the operation in their hospital.

Mr. Lu: On one hand it was to find a doctor, on the other her husband wanted to make more money, so he sent his wife there.

Gao Jie: Sent his wife there.

Mr. Lu: Very greedy, they already have a lot of money.

Gao Jie: Uh, then can you describe again that the donor organ was fresh. Can you tell us more about the details you asked him?

Mr. Lu: At that time, I said, how is it fresh? He said you don’t know about this. After that, I asked my sister-in-law. She said that the reason why she couldn’t do it after a few times was because she was scared. When she was doing the operation, people would scream desperately because of the agony. I said why not anesthetize. She said that some places used anesthesia, and some did not, that’s it. She also heard it from her sister-in-law. At that time, I didn’t pay much attention to it, to be honest.

Gao Jie: In 2002, you yourself had never heard of live organ harvesting in the United States.

Mr. Lu: I didn’t hear of it. Later, as the years went by, radio and newspapers were talking about live organ harvesting. Then I thought this matter relates to it. Later, I asked my sister-in-law if her sister was still doing it now? She is not doing it now and told me not to talk about it randomly outside. This was some two or three years ago.

Gao Jie: Mm.

Mr. Lu: She told me not to speak about it outside for fear of causing trouble, that’s it. I have an email address to keep a record, and I must speak up. Because, Mr. Wang, don’t you often talk on TV, and I know that the mainland government and the mainland Communist Party persecute people very much. I know because I have experienced it myself.

Gao Jie: Please describe again, you just mentioned, that when she took the living organs in the operation, she said that it must be fresh, or it won't work well after anesthesia, right?

Mr. Lu: Oh, it was mentioned later. She said that anesthesia cannot be used in every place, and it can’t be anesthetized where it (the organ) is needed. She said, “You don’t understand, you don’t understand.” She said that the fresher it is, the better if it’s not anesthetized. She said to quality is assured, you can rest assured. She knows that I have a lot of contact with doctors when I do house remodeling. I always help doctors do the remodeling. Then I told my sister-in-law that I do house remodeling for doctors. One doctor introduced me to others, they are all doctors. My sister-in-law was excited when she heard that. She told her sister about it and talked about it when her sister came to my house for dinner.

Gao Jie: Well, could you talk about this Zhou Qing again. She performed several live organ harvesting operations, and the people whose organ were harvested live were screaming (interrupted)

Mr. Lu: (Very excited) Yes, yes, when first (wheeled) in, (they) always said “Falun Dafa is good!”

Gao Jie: Did you hear this too?

Mr. Lu: I didn’t hear this. My sister-in-law heard from her sister, in person.

Gao Jie: When she did it (transplants) in 2002, she already knew that organs were taken from live Falun Gong practitioners.

Mr. Lu: She knows, she must know.

Gao Jie: She described that when they screamed, they screamed, “Falun Dafa is good!?”

Mr. Lu: Uh, afterwards, they desperately screamed in pain. There were armed police by the bedside, including army doctors, three or four people, four or five people.

Gao Jie: Did you ask her for details at the time? Was the person being tied to the bed when he screamed? Or what?

Mr. Lu: I never thought of such a complicated thing at the time. She said it was fresh, she said it was all Falun Gong.

Gao Jie: I already said this in 2002.

Mr. Lu: Uh, it’s a Falun Gong person, he just said that. At that time, Falun Gong, when we fill out forms, we had to write it down that we would not join Falun Gong when we go abroad, things like that.

Gao Jie: Well, can you remember it again? At that time, your sister-in-law said that her sister had nightmares after the operations. Are there any more details?

Mr. Lu: That’s it. She said she didn’t dare to do it because of having nightmares. She said the money was that easy to make. My sister-in-law told me in person. About three years ago, my sister-in-law told me not to mention this.

Gao Jie: That’s in 2013?

Mr. Lu: Yes, yes, yes, in 2013, the year that my mother passed away, she told me again and again not to talk about the matter. They also told me not to mention this about four or five years ago. They were scared.

Gao Jie: Well, at this time, the world is already paying attention to live organ harvesting. Okay, Mr. Wang Zhiyuan, do you have something to add, what else do you have to ask?

Wang Zhiyuan: Uh, very good. It is basically clear now. Oh, Mr. Lu, that’s Zhou Qing, your sister-in-law's sister. She had done live organ harvesting operations.

Mr. Lu: Yes, yes.

Wang Zhiyuan: The person whose organ was taken during the operations shouted and screamed that Falun Gong Dafa is good, right?

Mr. Lu: Yes, yes, when (they) got in and were tied up, they shouted Falun Dafa is good, and then screamed with a lot of pain... That’s it.

Wang Zhiyuan: Okay, and shouted “Falun Dafa is good” when brought in.

Mr. Lu: They brought him in, and he was tied to the table. That’s what my sister-in-law said—my sister-in-law would not lie—she didn't know what happened at the time, and I didn't know about organ harvesting outside. I learned later. About five years ago, my sister-in-law told me not to talk about it. Then I realized it, they did this thing (live organ harvesting), and I knew more clearly that they did it. I also want to report this matter.

Wang Zhiyuan: Uh… right.

Mr. Lu: I hope not to reveal my name or anything for now. Because they will know right away, because his... her husband's name is Mao Shuping, and his son-in-law is working in National Security who specializes in domestic and foreign affairs, and he is also responsible for the kind of cult there, he will follow them.

Gao Jie: So, Zhou Qing’s husband was in the judicial system before he retired, uh, this, Zhou Qing’s son-in-law...

Mr. Lu: No, Zhou Qing’s son-in-law is in National Security.

Gao Jie: …is in the National Security System.

Mr. Lu: But all are, now it should be all by...

Gao Jie: Still in the National Security System?

Mr. Lu: Uh, he’s in National Security now, specializes in surveilling people.

Gao Jie: National Security Agency, right. Has he asked you to do anything?

Mr. Lu: Oh, he didn’t ask me do anything, but he was, at that time, he, he told Mao Shuping to tell me; he said, “You are doing house remodeling outside (of China), have you heard anything from the doctors there? I said I had no information regarding this. I do house remodeling. He said that people you know through house remodeling are all doctors, because I told my sister-in-law before that all the house remodeling jobs I did were for doctors, and then he said you can introduce people through them and make more money than I do house remodeling.

Gao Jie: Let you introduce the patient?

Mr. Lu: Oh, let me...

Gao Jie: Did he ask you about Falun Gong practitioners around you and ask if you know these things?

Mr. Lu: Oh, about this he didn’t, he didn’t inquire about this.

Gao Jie: Zhou Qing’s husband is the former deputy director or deputy party secretary of the judicial bureau.

Mr. Lu: Ah, the deputy secretary of the party committee, before this was the Shanghai Bureau of Reform-through-Labor Work (correctional/prison; now it’s called Shanghai Municipal Prison Administration), that.

Wang Zhiyuan: Which one works for the National Security Bureau you said earlier, National Security?

Gao Jie: Zhou Qing's son-in-law currently works at the National Security System.

Wang Zhiyuan: Oh, Zhou Qing's son-in-law currently works at the National Security System.

Mr. Lu: Ah, then I will..., oh, oh, you speak.

Wang Zhiyuan: This is clear, very good.

Mr. Lu: Then, let me add one more thing. Oh, Mao Shuping, right? He told me personally that he was, he was, uh, when he was in the Bureau of Reform-through-Labor, he was either the deputy director or the deputy secretary of the party committee of the Bureau of Reform-through-Labor. That’s for sure, because he, his father did this job. He seemed to want to replace his father when his father retired. He was working in it. He also said that the people locked inside, right, they were all used for experimentation. Later they came to take people. He said, “I asked them to sign their names for it, but they refused to sign.” Sometimes, he said to make another phone call to record it to avoid becoming trouble in the future. He told me personally, Mao Shuping told me in person.

Gao Jie: Who with them, who asked to take prisoners from the Bureau of Justice, and what experiments did they do?

Mr. Lu: No, not the Bureau of Justice. He was in the Bureau of Reform-through-Labor. When he was in the Bureau of Reform-through-Labor, that is, when people often came to ask him, wanting...

Gao Jie: Wanting prisoners?

Mr. Lu: Yes, prisoners.

Gao Jie: Uh huh, what experiments did they want the prisoners for?

Mr. Lu: He...does what kind of experiment, he said he wanted people, I said what he wanted people for, he also said... something very shady very shady.

Gao Jie: Uh.

Mr. Lu: To take people, I know now, they are all taken, maybe for live organ harvesting. Oh, there is one more thing, I can also tell you, now, uh, two years ago, this is for sure, two years ago, my nephew’s name is Cui Zhaosheng.

Gao Jie: Cui...

Mr. Lu: Cui, the character is a mountain, and a jia character beneath it.

Gao Jie: A jia below a mountain, Cui.

Mr. Lu: Yes, he is from Pingdu, Shandong

Gao Jie: Cui Zhaosheng,

Mr. Lu: Aye, he and Mao Shuping are from the same place, and Mao Shuping is...

Gao Jie: What is the relationship with your nephew, your sister's child?

Mr. Lu: He is the son of my own sister.

Gao Jie: Your sister's son? Er, his name is Cui Zhaosheng. Which Zhao is it?

Mr. Lu: It’s the “zhao” in sunshine, the sun shines.

Gao Jie: The sun shines. Which sheng is it?

Mr. Lu: Sheng for life.

Gao Jie: Sheng for life.

Mr. Lu: He was born in 1957, 1957 is the year of chicken,1957.

Gao Jie: May 7th, 1957? Okay.

Mr. Lu: Yes, yes. They were in... er... Now, for three years, my mother has been gone for three years, three years ago, he then was still saying (that), now, I don’t know, three years ago they were... all Falun Gong sent to their police station, that’s Falun Gong practitioners, they were sent directly to Pudong, just... I asked my nephew, I said sent them to where in Pudong? He said, he said…told me not to ask about this. I said you don’t do this kind of thing, because he is in the police station..., he is specially doing this kind of... that is, to put it bluntly, doing a bad thing, to get people (practitioners) in, or the money from gambling in the casino. They said that the gambling money was too little, and then they divided the money. Later, I mainly paid attention again to him sending Falun Gong to Pudong two years ago, and asked him where, but he did not tell me. He said for sure, they, that day he also told me, uh, they caught a female Falun Gong and still said that Falun Gong was good when she was sent in. He said that we would have taken care of her/punished her if it were before, but now that we don’t punish, just sent her by car to… and there is no record. He said that he does not make any record, he said that to avoid trouble, and (he) can get 500 yuan, he told me like this, but he couldn’t get 500 yuan, he was just saying it, sending to Pudong, now catch people; when (they) catch a Falun Gong (practitioner), send them to Pudong, Shanghai Pudong.

Wang Zhiyuan: Sent to where in Pudong?

Mr. Lu: He... I asked him, he didn't tell me, but he, my nephew, must know.

Wang Zhiyuan: Mm.

Mr. Lu: He... he is, he is in the auxiliary police, I said if something bad happens you will be held responsible in the future.

Gao Jie: He is in the auxiliary police?

Mr. Lu: Yes, he is in the auxiliary police.

Gao Jie: Mm.

Mr. Lu: They let the auxiliary police come forward, beat people, arrest people, and they all let the auxiliary police to come forward to do (these things).

Gao Jie: I’d like to confirm one more detail with you here. You mentioned just now, this, Mao Shuping, when he was the deputy director of the Bureau of Reform-through-Labor, or the deputy secretary...

Wang Zhiyuan: Deputy Director.

Gao Jie: Uh, some people came to him to ask to take prisoners to do experiments; what then, he, he is afraid that he will be held accountable in the future, he has recordings of all of that as some evidence to protect himself...

Mr. Lu: Mm.

Gao Jie: Record.

Mr. Lu: Record, he said.

Gao Jie: Okay.

Mr. Lu: This person is now retired, he is ...

Gao Jie: In what year did he tell you these things?

Mr. Lu: Um, this was probably in 2004, maybe in 2004.

Gao Jie: Around 2004?

Mr. Lu: He was already there at that time, that is, had been transferred to the Judicial Bureau, before he was in the Shanghai Bureau of Reform-through-Labor.

Gao Jie: Yes.

Mr. Lu: His relationship with Zhou Zhiming (Wu Zhiming) is quite... Do you know Zhou Zhiming (Wu Zhiming)?

Gao Jie: Zhou Zhiming (Wu Zhiming) was Jiang Zemin’s pawn.

Mr. Lu: Well, Jiang Zemin was... the Public Security Bureau. Well, he also told me that the Central Investigation Team came, and that year he told me that when he was in Shanghai, the Communist Youth League Committee surrounded him and then everyone went out... he told me in detail. He knew the inside story.

Gao Jie: Mm.

Mr. Lu: So, I believe what they said is true.

Wang Zhiyuan: What is needed now is to verify the experiment he talked about, this detail.

Gao Jie: But from the part described by Mr. Lu, from the process he described, we can know that people in the system are doing bad things, and they themselves know that they are not good, and then, some people have already prepared to protect themselves (leave themselves a way of escape), they have some corresponding evidence in their hands.

Wang Zhiyuan: Yes, that means that when Mao Shuping was the deputy director or deputy secretary of the Bureau of Justice, when he was in charge of prison inmates, some people came to him to ask to take prisoners to conduct experiments. Then there are some things we need to verify: one is are the prisoners Falun Gong (practitioners)? The second is what year was this, and the third is what kind of experiment was it?

Mr. Lu: Oh, that was not talked about.

Wang Zhiyuan: Oh, (he) didn’t talk about it?

Mr. Lu: Well, here’s how it is. Let me correct it. At the time he was not a leader of the Bureau of Justice when he talked about “sending (people) to.” He was a leader of the Bureau of Reform-through-Labor. He was either the Deputy Director of the Bureau of Reform-through-Labor or the Deputy Secretary of the Party Committee, at that time. He was later transferred to the Justice Bureau.

Gao Jie: If he was asked to sign, he couldn’t have been the party secretary. The signature is usually the signature of an administrative official. He should be in the position of deputy director, at least the position of deputy director.

Mr. Lu: At least... Yes.

Gao Jie: He, he is in charge of this aspect, and the party secretary would not sign it.

Mr. Lu: He, he also said that, uh, to replace prisoners, right? He said they were all from the Central government, all from Beijing.

Gao Jie: Want (to take) prisoners?

Mr. Lu: Yes, wanted to replace prisoners. He, he said it himself. I said, he said inside... he said it himself.

Gao Jie: Okay, just now, Mr. Lu was talking about another thing, that is, in the judicial system, that he heard (they would) use some people to replace criminals.

Mr. Lu: Yes, yes... This is absolutely true. He told me personally, I, I told him at that time, you have to be careful when you do this. He said, I will go to another department to work in the future. Then, I heard my sister, sister-in-law said that he was transferred to the Bureau of Justice as a leader. He used to be in the Bureau of Reform-through-labor Work.

Gao Jie: Um, so you asked him at that time. You used, “Replace the real criminal with someone else, to get out from the reform-through-labor system, are you afraid of committing crimes?” How did he answer?

Mr. Lu: At that time, I asked him this way, "Why are you so shady? it was you who was in charge of this matter at that time, will you get into trouble in the future?" He said: “I keep all records for myself----who, the paper notes, I keep them all. when they called (to request without phone recording), then I have to call back to confirm again. I keep the recording for myself, I write down everything to avoid trouble in the future.”

Gao Jie: Uh, so that means, um, there are orders from above, I have to execute, even if I don’t want to, he wants to explain himself... um...not..., he’s passive.

Mr. Lu: Yes..., innocent.

Gao Jie: Okay. Another thing, Mr. Lu just said, he helped someone unwittingly …

Wang Zhiyuan: Right. That is an issue.

Gao Jie: He has helped a person unknowingly with a house church, who gave him 1000 dollars.

Mr. Lu: Uh, yes...

Gao Jie: Go ahead

Mr. Lu: In late 1999, I went back to China for the Chinese New Year. Back then, I was living on 32nd St at San Francisco. There was a house church on 32nd street. A lady, a senior, Mrs. Yuan, was with the church. She has since passed away. Back then, she asked me to deliver a letter to Shanghai. She was from Shanghai, a location close to my home in Shanghai. I hadn't known her before. I got to know her from her missionary work.

She asked me to deliver a letter. In the envelope, she put more than 1000 dollars. She told me there was money inside, but not how much and other details. I brought that home. The second night after I returned home, she asked me when I would be at home. I replied that I would stay home all night. I told her a later time would be better. She asked when I would go to bed. I told her I usually went to bed around 11 pm. She said around 9 pm or 10 pm. I told her 10 pm would be better. Since I just returned home, my classmates might come to visit me. Visitors had to leave first.

Later, someone came in. A Chinese woman. A bit old, about in her 60s. I gave her the money…the envelope, the money inside. The envelope was sealed (by the lady who gave it to me). I gave it to her, then she left. Back then, when she came in, after she went out, in between, there were about 5 minutes. Later, at around 12:50 am, at midnight, someone knocked on my door. They were from the local police detachment. They knocked on my door. In a while, they took me to jail. At that time, I asked them what happened…

Gao Jie: Where did they take you?

Mr. Lu: Shanghai, Shanghai, well, well, back then, we call that Yongjia Police Station, Yongjia Road. Now it is called Taiping Police Station. They used a vehicle to send me over, a jeep. After transported me there, right, uh, asking me… Back then, to tell the truth, I didn't know what was wrong. He said: "We won't arrest a person on a whim." He asked me to confess. When I spoke, they used electric batons on me.

Gao Jie: Electric batons to beat you?

Mr. Lu: Right… electric shock. Then, both of them shocked me with batons.

Gao Jie: Was that in 1999. Hum?

Mr. Lu: Right. Then, I really didn't know. Later, they told me in an explicit manner. He said something to the effect of, "I was transferring funds for house churches." Oh, all I knew was an envelope. He said that there were 1000 dollars inside. The reason being, which I learned later, they had probably caught the person, you know, or something like that, anyway, they had been stalking her.

Back then, as a matter of fact, I didn't know. But I knew there was money inside it. I knew that. If I hadn't been aware that there was money inside… I told them, like: "Had I known this, for sure, I wouldn't have helped them. No one would put money inside and gave it to me without a purpose. No written note, or something…" Later, he said roughly, right, "he'll fix me." He told me not to tell anyone. If something like this happens again, I must report to him. In fact, will I report to the police station? I'm not that kind of person. I experienced that myself.

Gao Jie: Hum… back then, you received a green card, then, hm, how did they threaten you, telling you that you might not be able to leave China?

Mr. Lu: Oh, back then, it was like that. His son-in-law told me directly. His son-in-law.

Gao Jie: Whose son-in-law?

Mr. Lu: Zhou Qing's son-in-law

Gao Jie: Oh, back then, after you were arrested and detained, your family learned it.

Mr. Lu: Eh… They didn't know that.

Gao Jie: Oh, they didn't know that. Later, it happened to you once again.

Mr. Lu: Mealtime or…

Gao Jie: When your family were having meals together?

Mr. Lu: We talked about it when we were eating together.

Gao Jie:           Hm, the son-in-law of Zhou Qing, you said he was working at the National Security Bureau (political security bureau)

Mr. Lu: Then, I said that you guys were terrifying; you catch anyone, literally anyone without evidence. It's a matter of fact. He said that those were frivolous things. Then I said, was it. He said, uh… there are things about us you can't tell anyone. What he meant was not to let me talk about him and his mother-in-law's involvement in live organ harvesting.

Gao Jie: Uh…he also told you that?

Mr. Lu: Right. This was about 5 to 6 years ago. About six years. 6 years.

Gao Jie: In addition to your sister-in-law told you not to talk about this.

Mr. Lu: Right, my sister-in-law

Gao Jie: Her son-in-law, that's

Mr. Lu: Right. He told me that.

Gao Jie: Zhou Qing's son-in-law also reminded you?

Mr. Lu: Right. Reminded me. He was kind of, uh… straightforward, sort of threatening.

Gao Jie: Oh, kind of threatening.

Mr. Lu: Right. To give an example, he put it this way. Uh. Someone didn't get it. For instance, me, if I told this to others, he said, eh, we could let the American government to send him back if you did so. I told him right away: that's impossible, in America, the American government definitely wouldn't do that; the customs officers wouldn't do that. He said I was too naive. He gave an example saying that they would put something inside your checked-in luggage. He didn't say he would do that himself. He said if someone else would do this, these wicked things. He even said these things were wicked. He talked about putting something inside someone's (luggage), and if the person was caught by the U.S government, he would be subject to… He meant illegal drugs. Then the person would be sent back. You see how bad they could be. After I heard that from him, I was literally shocked. Ouch, I couldn't tell anyone about this. But now, I really can't hold it. I want to speak out, yet, I don't want you to give out my name for the time being.

Gao Jie: Hm…Mr. Wan, can you hear clearly?

Wang Zhiyuan: Hm. I can hear clearly. Great.

Gao Jie: Ah, I'll briefly summarize. That's to say, the national security system, the individual from the Shanghai national security system, threatened Mr. Lu, such as, you were too naïve, in other words, you were too stupid. If they don't want you returning to America, even if you have the legal identification----U.S. permanent residency or citizenship. For those who felt they were in America so they were not afraid, as a matter of fact, we don't have to do it by ourselves, we could let the American government send you back from the U.S. When Mr. Lu said this was unbelievable: how could the U.S government, custom officer and immigration department can cooperate with you to do that? The answer was: you were too simple. You need to check in your luggage. Right? Put something drug-like into your luggage, put it in there, just leave it there. Mr. Lu finally got it ----something drug like, then the U.S custom officer would detect it and deport you. Mr. Lu was literally shocked at what he heard. From the conversation, he knew those who worked for the political security system could do all kinds of bad things and stop at no evil.

Wang Zhiyuan: Hm, that is an issue.

Mr. Lu: Then he told me, my… helped his mother-in-law, helped Zhou Qing, his mother-in-law, trying to silence me, not letting me talk about this to anyone.

Gao Jie: Hum

Mr. Lu: Back then, Mao Shuping was also present. Before, he usually didn't come (to family gatherings). After that, he never came (to my home). He only came twice. The first time was about asking me to introduce (patients to them). My brother and sister-in-law were hosting a dinner party. They came in. They surprisingly found out that I had a home renovation business. He asked me whether my clients were mostly the families of medical doctors. I replied, yes, yes, all of them are medical doctors working in hospitals. He wanted to know, well, asked me to have those doctors introduce patients who needed organ transplants to mainland China.

Gao Jie: Hm, but recently…

Mr. Lu: Eh, about 5 to 6 years ago.

Gao Jie: Silenced you

Mr. Lu: Right, he silenced me. He, his son-in-law, put on such a play. And his daughter. His daughter's name is…

Gao Jie: Daughter of Zhou Qing.

Mr. Lu: Right, Zhou Qing's daughter, Mao… I can't recall her full name. She was with the Shanghai Law Society. Uh, she was the secretary. Her surname is Mao, you can… She also worked on Falun Gong related matters. She currently… She also said, like, "now the situation is getting tense." What she implied was, uh… there were things that happened, and it indeed had happened before. Because she said roughly: "Don't talk about this to anyone." She also said if it was made known, you can’t visit the U.S.A as a tourist in the future. She said something like that. She also said…

Gao Jie: Oh…

Mr. Lu: So they did it. Many facts could directly prove that they did it. That's for sure. Back then, we didn't talk about live organ harvesting. They (the organ suppliers) were all alive. Back then, I didn't pay attention to that. Later, I heard something about live organ harvesting. The Canadian doctors wrote live organ harvesting… which has been happening in mainland China.

Gao Jie: Hm, Well, Mr. Wang Zhiyuan, do you have any further questions?

Wang Zhiyuan: Ah, I have two questions.

Mr. Lu: All right.

Wang Zhiyuan: First, as you just mentioned, Mao Shuping, the Deputy Director of the Labor Reform Bureau. Later, someone approached him to get prisoners for experiments. When did that happen, which year? Did he tell you the time?

Mr. Lu: Uh, he didn't tell that. That he…

Wang Zhiyuan: My question is: which year did he tell you about this?

Mr. Lu: Oh, roughly, uh, that's 2002. Probably, 2002, all those things happened around 2002.

Wang Zhiyuan: Around 2002?

Mr. Lu: Right, around 2002

Wang Zhiyuan: He, did he say whether those were Falun Gong practitioners?

Mr. Lu: Oh, that, he, back then, not…

Wang Zhiyuan: He didn't tell you clearly, correct?

Mr. Lu: Right, he didn't...Later, I knew, for sure, it was from… either from Falun Gong practitioners like, or individuals from other churches, that…

Gao Jie:           At that time, when he was talking to you about that, he regarded you as one of his extended family members.

Mr. Lu: Right, extended family members…

Gao Jie: Conversations with the relatives of the family in a casual way. Ah?

Mr. Lu: Right…

Gao Jie: Back then, you weren't aware of the live organ harvesting, so you didn't take it seriously?

Mr. Lu: Uh. No. I didn't think it would be an issue.

Gao Jie: You didn't take issue with that. Recently when you heard from media reports…, you connected the dots.

Mr. Lu: Right, yes…

Gao Jie: So you know these were all true.

Wang Zhiyuan: Another one. I want to ask the next question. Back then, he didn't say those were Falun Gong practitioners, but you, together, did talk about that, taking organs from Falun Gong practitioners. Did you discuss that after you heard about the live organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners?

Mr. Lu: Right. Yes.

Wang Zhiyuan: That is to say, you talked about the surgeries of taking organs from Falun Gong practitioners and sale for profit. After talking about that, someone phoned in, asking him for prisoners for an experiment, correct? Is that the right sequence?

Mr. Lu: Right…Back then, He said those were from Falun Gong at a later time. In the beginning, when he was doing that, when he first talked about doing this, he didn't say that, not mentioning the issue of Falun Gong.

Gao Jie: Could you first tell us this important person? How did he protect himself?

Mr. Lu: Okay...

Gao Jie: At a later time, you talked about…

Mr. Lu: Right. We talked about that at a later time.

Wang Zhiyuan: Later, you talked about taking organs from Falun Gong practitioners…

Mr. Lu: Right, her sister. I asked her in person. Back then, I asked her, how did you dare to do that? She said that before. She said it was very horrible. Back then, when she was talking about that, she looked like this… She said that. It must be taken from someone alive. Now I believe it was from a live person. Of course, she felt horrible. Otherwise, surgery was part of her daily job, how could she feel horrible?

Gao Jie: Hum…

Wang Zhiyuan: Right. My question is, we just discussed, uh, Mao Shuping talked about someone asking him for prisoners to do experiments. Before you discussed that, what did the conversation look like? What triggered him to touch on the topic?

Mr. Lu: Oh. It's like this. I told him this…  I said, officials in mainland China are so corrupted. In our Shanghai dialect, we call it "inky-black", which meant doing something bad or making filthy money. Then we talked about that. Later he said this, uh… I told him: you need to leave a path of retreat for yourself, don't burn any bridges. Ah. He said, like, "I am fine. They gave me written notes. I copied all of them." He also talked about leaving a path of retreat. That's how the conversation started.

Wang Zhiyuan: Hum, okay. Good…

Mr. Lu: Back then, he was the leader of the Labor Transformation Bureau; later, he transferred to the Justice Bureau

Wang Zhiyuan: Right, after discussing that, uh, after the experiment.

Mr. Lu: He, later, they talked about that. He said: "Now, it looks like the situation is tense." He said, that's... uh, what he said is all those were military hospitals, police hospitals, those were all done in the police hospitals.

Gao Jie: Is that what Mao Shuping said?

Mr. Lu: Right… In fact, he was afraid the issue about his wife… I might blow the whistle.

Gao Jie: Hum.

Wang Zhiyuan: Oh, he was afraid that you might blow the whistle about his wife's engaging in forcibly removing organs from live Falun Gong practitioners.

Mr. Lu: Right. Yes. Yes. So his son-in-law also came in. I knew it. I told him, I am in my 60s, I am older than you. Well, I know, uh, they, kind of, having their son-in-law, or police like, try to silence me. The more they attempted to do so, the more it reminded me of the (organ-harvesting) policy, the more I have been determined to speak out.

Wang Zhiyuan: Right. That's to say, in reality, in addition to what you have perceived at that time, when he talked about getting prisoners for experiments, in fact, what he was asked for are Falun Gong practitioners, correct?

Mr. Lu: Right, right…including my nephew, his name is Cui Zhaosheng. They, for sure, they were transported to… One day, he told me in person. Back then, my mom was still alive. My mom knew that as well. I told her Falun Gong were all good people, you shouldn't…  She said, anyway, you can't use human beings for that, you can request a vacation as an excuse. He said, uh, I need to have food on my table. You guys don't pay me. My nephew told me so in person.

Wang Zhiyuan: Hum… That means they did…

Mr. Lu: My nephew, I can tell you. He is in Shanghai, Xuhui District, called… uh, a location near the U.S consulate (in Shanghai), that police station. He was an auxiliary police officer. He…

Wang Zhiyuan: Oh, an auxiliary police officer.

Mr. Lu: I wanted to know the address. I asked him: could you take me with you? He was alert. He said, uh, because I'm his young uncle, he said, why did you ask about that? Were you interested? Well, I said, I want to learn about it. You only need to bring me to the address and point the door out to me. He knew he could get into trouble, so he refused to tell me. He said, uh, it’s none of your business. It'll get you into trouble later. He said, I was like this, when I was asked to escort, I would do it. When he was on the job, there were also drivers and police officers with him…

Gao Jie: To escort the Falun Gong practitioners who were caught…

Mr. Lu: Right, yes, yes…

Gao Jie: No records, transported them to Shanghai Pudong directly.

Mr. Lu: He told me in person, when Falun Gong were arrested and detained, before, they would "fix" them first; now they don't. That was what happened many years ago. Now it's not like that… When they were arrested, they would be escorted there, shortly after the arrest and detention, escorted to Pudong, well, no records of names, no records. We also talked about money. I said, if you want to use the money, will you get into trouble? He said, no records. He was paid cash, no records. He said that to me in person.

Gao Jie: Pudong, is that a police station, a prison, or somewhere else, where in Pudong, do you know?

Mr. Lu: Ah, he didn’t tell. He said absolutely it was not the police station.

Gao Jie: For sure, not the police station.

Mr. Lu: Definitely.

Gao Jie: Was that the detention center, labor camp, prison, do you know? Or you don’t know?

Mr. Lu: Well, I don’t know. He has done it quite a few times. He told me so.

Gao Jie: Hm, your conversation with him was in 2002, correct?

Mr. Lu: No. My nephew told me that three years ago. Three years.

Gao Jie:           2013

Wang Zhiyuan: Oh, three years ago. That’s 2013.

Mr. Lu: Right. 2013. My nephew, when the police station told him there were Falun Gong caught, they would escort them there. They did this for money, indeed for money.

Wang Zhiyuan: Oh, that’s 2013, they…

Mr. Lu: Uh, once they got them, they would escort them to Pudong.

Wang Zhiyuan: Your nephew also told you.

Mr. Lu: Right, correct, correct, correct…

Wang Zhiyuan: He told you, when they got Falun Gong practitioners, they would escort them to Pudong, without registering them. He did this for money.

Mr. Lu: Right, correct, roughly like that. But the process was not like that. They escorted them first, then they could get money once they escorted them. I told him that I was really concerned about this, and I asked him the exact location in Pudong and how many times he had done that... He said at least a few times every year. I asked him the address of the place again. He said that of course he knew the place as he was there by car before, how could he not know? I asked him to bring me there as I want to know the address… He was quite alert and said: you’d better not go because you even asked me not to do that. I warned him not to do that. He didn’t agree and replied to me by saying that you were just afraid there might be troubles in the future. He even told me that I might get into trouble in the future. He… didn’t tell me the address.

Wang Zhiyuan: Hum…

Mr. Lu: He didn’t tell me the address. I asked him not to be involved in these. My mother also told him not to do that.

Gao Jie: hat’s 2013. Ah?

Mr. Lu: Right. My mother was already 100 years old then, her mind was still clear. She told him not to do this. She said that he exerted a lot of effort to such unethical things. When he was drunk, he would reveal these things.

Gao Jie: Oh. He would talk about these things after being drunk.

Mr. Lu: Right. He specifically talked about the police station instructed him to commit perjury.

Gao Jie: Oh...

Mr. Lu: For example, I will digress a little, to tell you how bad the police station was. For instance, in order to close their cases, once a suspect was detained, they had to complete the investigation. In order to end the case, they need something such as written evidences, or a voice recording, so they could complete the file as soon as possible. But, the detained suspects…uh… the person detained later would be used as a witness. The so-called witnesses were petty criminals---gamblers, or those from another town. After they were arrested and detained there, the police would tell them: when you were sent in, you just say you have heard… what he said----something relevant to the case. Well, they would call him out so he could testify. My nephew gave them the instruction; they just followed the order. Thus, the police were able to complete their investigation and receive thousand dollars bonus. But my nephew wouldn’t get that much. I asked him in detail. I asked very specific questions. My nephew, at the end, well, after I asked him about the address, he no longer discuss anything with me anymore.

Gao Jie: He told you. They knew a lot of darker secrets in the police station.

Mr. Lu: Correct. Correct…

Gao Jie: He also participated, but he didn’t believe he was the principal actor. He did that for money.

Mr. Lu: Right, right…

Gao Jie: Oh, so he told you a dark secret.

Mr. Lu: Yes

Gao Jie: Once coerced, uh, if not coerced, once enticed, or arranged, the late-comer would testify falsely against the early-comer.

Mr. Lu: Right, right… perjury

Gao Jie: To prove the crime of the one arrested first.

Mr. Lu: Ah, their purpose is to get a bonus, that's it, my nephew said so.

Gao Jie: Yes, hm… Really shady.

Mr. Lu: Back then, I was, about three years ago, I would return to Shanghai once a year. Every year he would tell me something about the police station. We used to be close to each other. But, after he told me that (the Falun Gong prisoners were escorted to a secret place), I said to him, at least you should be held accountable for that... I said that, he originally… as my whole family were against him, because he was not a good person. He abused alcohol, was involved in gambling and all sorts of bad things, even lost his home for gambling. You see, they were all rogues and villains and they were together.

Gao Jie: All right. Mr. Wang, thank you. Please contact us if you have any further questions.

Wang Zhiyuan: Okay

Mr. Lu: Right, right, Thank you. Mr. Wang. Take care. Have a good one!

Wang Zhiyuan: Have a good one! Bye-bye

Gao Jie: Bye-bye